Challenging Social Norms Part 1

Gabby and Dan explore why it’s so important to question the harmful social norms that often show up in naturism. They talk about how these outdated ideas can limit growth, create unnecessary barriers, and keep people from experiencing the true freedom that naturism offers. From breaking stereotypes to encouraging more inclusive spaces, this episode highlights the powerful benefits of challenging the status quo and embracing a naturist lifestyle that is ethical, welcoming, and authentic.

Includes messages from Gabby and Dan

Transcript

Gabby: 0:21

welcome back to the Nature's Bi podcast. I'm Gabby the Crown Nudie.

Dan: 0:28

And I'm Dan Maker of things.

Gabby: 0:30

So Dan, what was your favorite thing that happened this week?

Dan: 0:35

I don't know

Gabby: 0:36

Dan.

Dan: 0:37

There's

Gabby: 0:37

many things that happened this week. You know? What was my favorite?

Dan: 0:41

What was your favorite

Gabby: 0:42

We went golfing, not golfing. Oh,

Dan: 0:47

was fun. That's true. That was very true.

Gabby: 0:50

right here in Jersey City. So apparently there's this thing where people in Jersey City, they go golfing, but it really is just smoking pot and driving through a golf cart, golf

Dan: 1:03

course

Gabby: 1:04

a golf course, in a golf cart,

Dan: 1:06

golf cart,

Gabby: 1:06

pretending to be golfers. But it was fun. We got to meet people, we got to meet some folks that are, really helping out with the concert that we have coming up in

Dan: 1:21

October. Yeah, that's pretty amazing. But I also find it quite amazing to even learn that Jersey City, which is a city, has a golf course.

Gabby: 1:32

Yeah.

Dan: 1:33

where would you put such a thing

Gabby: 1:35

In Jersey

Dan: 1:35

City, Apparently, but that's weird.

Gabby: 1:38

Yeah. for those who don't know, we, Dan and I both live in Jersey City and, our concert v scars live at Vanilla Skies, happening in October, is gonna be right here in Jersey City. And part of that is, part of getting the word out is connecting with folks in our community, other businesses and just spreading the word. So we got invited to a golf tournament. You know, I don't know if there was a tournament that happened, but it was really

Dan: 2:16

fun. It was a lot of fun. Even though we didn't golf, we saw other people golfing, and I think it was more that they were just going around having fun. And there were these little challenges that they had at different

Gabby: 2:30

holes. Oh yeah. And then you pay to, I don't know, hit the

Dan: 2:35

ball. I don't think it was that you had to pay for it. It was more that there was a challenge that, like

Gabby: 2:39

whoever no, there was like, you had to pay$20 for two shots,$30 for three shots. there was definitely a

Dan: 2:49

cost to it. I'm not used to paying for$20 for that kind of shot In Jersey City anywhere really?

Gabby: 2:55

really? No. In Jersey City you pay for one shot at the bar and it

Dan: 2:59

could be$20. Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm used to. Not hitting a ball.

Gabby: 3:05

And, it was fun because, Jersey legal marijuana, so the golf course, I would say the name, but I don't wanna get into any legal trouble. But, the golf course here, allowed people to smoke. I guess also too, it's a thing amongst golfers to have cigars, so why not marijuana?

Dan: 3:29

Okay, I can

Gabby: 3:30

I mean, there were people smoking cigars there and just cruising around in the golf cart and everyone was just talking. We got to share more about the concert. People thought it was cool. There was one girl, woman, I should say in particular, who was just all about the message behind ethical Naturism and what the concert meant for nas, the body freedom, the body autonomy, body positivity. She was just so excited and even, wanted to. Lend her services, there as well as a photographer or maybe even as a, an additional

Dan: 4:13

dance performer. So, she said that her friends would be all into this. So it's like amazing to be able to meet people and if anything, that's one of the things that. being around you in Jersey City is people are very open to naturalism a lot more so than I would've thought. It's like you sometimes will mention it to somebody and they're, oh, wow, that's so cool. And it's really? There's so many people that just find the idea of naturism in a setting like this to be, they're just so open to it.

Gabby: 4:46

I think a lot of times people are scared about opening up about. Naturalism, especially in urban environments, right? there's not a lot of places in Jersey City or even New York City, which is like right across the Hudson from Jersey City, to experience naturism. And most times when you do get, to a place that does offer a space for nudity, it's usually around sexual activities. And so what I love what we're doing is that we're bringing a new concept to this. spade to this city, this very urban city. Most people think naturalism, outdoors, all that. But you don't have that accessibility. We don't. It's not like in some countries where you can just go to the store in the nude, right? So what do you do? Like we have to create a solution for it. And I think that's what RK Underground is doing. And this generation of city dwellers aren't as afraid of talking about nudity and being open and honest about body positivity and body autonomy. People now, especially women, are more empowered with their bodies. And what I also like about this too, is that we're also. engaging with men who are okay with nudity without, this idea of sex behind it, but also this idea of being comfortable in a room with other men as well and being naked and it not

Dan: 6:38

being, not

Gabby: 6:40

weird is not being weird. Or even like those homophobic

Dan: 6:44

thoughts that come

Gabby: 6:46

with being naked

Dan: 6:47

men. Yeah. Oftentimes it's more like for men it's locker room, that's where the nudity shows up because that's where it's acceptable. But take that into any other environment and it becomes awkward and weird and that sort of thing. I also believe that part of what we're doing is. Educating people on what nature is all about. I think that a lot of the people that we end up talking to, while they think it's cool to just be more open and free about their bodies, the concept of what nature is itself is a foreign idea. And a lot of what we're doing through RK Underground and the concert and even just talking to people is letting them know that, no, this is a way of life. There's a philosophy behind this. It's not just being comfortable in your skin. It's all about that bodily autonomy, self-acceptance, body acceptance, respect for yourself, respect for others, and that sort of thing. So I think there's a lot that we're doing that can be very

Gabby: 7:46

beneficial for people. another thing that I've noticed is that what we're trying to do is make

Dan: 7:53

nature

Gabby: 7:54

Naturism to be more specific, more mainstream. However, it is still hard to collaborate with local businesses. What we're doing is mingling and. getting our name out within Jersey City, but it is still hard with laws in place around certain businesses, engaging with businesses that do allow nudity. Because for instance, there's the alcohol law and cannabis laws and all these other things that do bring people together in a social environment. there's still laws against it

Dan: 8:36

because new. Well, it's'cause there's stigmatism that believing that nudity is a sexual thing and combining sex and any kind of alcohol or anything else is going to be too much right for people to handle. And we're not doing that. We're coming along and saying, you know what? This is about non-sexual nudity. And so that's challenging some of those norms, right? That we're talking about social norms. And it's not something that, even if the businesses feel that they understand what we're talking about, they understand what it is we're bringing to the table when it comes to ethical natures, even if they understand that, they don't have a lot of freedom to be able to say, yes, we can be part of that. So as a result, we're having to find ways to do this education, bring these events to people while still. Dealing with the fact that there are going to be limitations on how far we can go with certain things. But that's, talking about social

Gabby: 9:39

norms, right? Yeah. and that, we're gonna continue this conversation later on in the podcast today, but, let's pivot for a little bit. What is our weekly vibe?

Dan: 9:55

Check Dad? This week's vibe is all about reminding ourselves that touch is never assumed. No one owes you their body, their space, their energy, and nature's spaces. And in life consent isn't just about saying yes or no to intimacy. It's about respecting personal boundaries at every level. Just because someone is nude doesn't mean they are inviting you closer. Just because someone is friendly doesn't mean you have access to their body or their energy. The healthiest communities are the ones that protect this truth, where respect and consent are non-negotiable,

Gabby: 10:31

and we're calling that the touch is never assumed vibe because it shifts the whole dynamic. It takes the pressure of people to perform or to meet someone else's expectations. When you understand that no one owes you access, you start to respect others in a deeper way. And you also start to honor your own boundaries. That's what makes spaces feel safe and powerful. It's not about forcing connection, it's about building it on respect and

Dan: 11:06

joy. And when you think about it, this idea that touch is never assumed is really about challenging. One of the biggest social norms we have been taught. Society tells us that access to someone else's body or space can be taken for granted. But naturalism

Gabby: 11:57

flips that on its head. Exactly. And once you start questioning that assumption, it opens the door to questioning so many other harmful norms. That is what we wanna dive into today, how Naturism helps us challenge not just stereotypes about nudity, but also the deeper social norms around gender abuse, mental health, race, and identity. So Dan, if you can challenge social norms in textile spaces, you can challenge them in nature spaces

Dan: 12:34

too.

Gabby: 12:35

Oh yeah, for sure. Accountability has to come first. We can't call out society without making our own

Dan: 12:42

communities stronger. so what does that accountability

Gabby: 12:46

look like in nature? Well, first we need to stop forcing rules about how bodies should look like tattoos, piercings, surgery are all forms of

Dan: 12:59

body autonomy. It used to be that nature's clubs many years ago wouldn't allow people with tattoos or piercings or that sort of thing. I mean, I knew people that had tattoos, but the only places they could go were on the beaches, like Gunnison Beach and that sort of thing. It was not that long ago that even clubs like ours admitted people into the property. Right. You know, it was it. It's taken a long time for some of the clubs to catch up to where

Gabby: 13:30

the rest of society is. It seems a little silly, right, because you're telling me that Minute N body is wrong. Right, exactly. It doesn't seem like a place of body acceptance when you're doing that, and I'm glad that people, and you know, nature spaces

Dan: 13:48

are doing better with that. Well, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the clubs in particular weren't so much about body acceptance. It was a place to be able to go to just be naked for the weekend to take your clothes off. But it wasn't a philosophical concept that started all of that. The philosophy was a bit more of what came from the Free Beach Movement, the Nature Society, and Lee Baxandall and his writings were much more about body acceptance and saying, no, this is for all, body acceptance is for all, and it's not just this way of looking at what you're

Gabby: 14:24

doing on a weekend. I'm curious,

Dan: 14:27

when

Gabby: 14:27

did that start to shift to this idea of how one shows up to, or this idea of this is the way you show up at a nature space with no tattoos? It's like almost telling, because a lot of people, and I said this before to you when we had this conversation, that a lot of cultures have tattoos, right? Yeah. There's Polynesian cultures, there's African cultures, there's so many cultures that use tattoos as a symbolism for that culture. And so it'd be interesting if there are stories of people who are, immigrants in America that grew up during a time where they wanted to be nas and they went to these places and they were turned away because they had their cultural tattoos. it's funny because I know in their mind, because we like in these conversations we had before, in their mind it wasn't so much cultural, they weren't even thinking about that, right? So there is this unconscious bias that's happening, right? Because now. You're just eliminating something and not thinking, How it's affecting people of all diverse backgrounds. it's definitely something that needs to be spoken about more because there are still people, even if it is allowed, there's still people who judge someone coming into a nature space with tattoos or even piercings, right? Because there are cultures that do piercings and you don't, instead of asking questions, you're just

Dan: 16:23

assuming it's for the wrong reason. Well, keep in mind that it wasn't something that came into naturalism or to nudist clubs in particular. It was something that was effectively always there. Right? And part of the philosophy was we don't want to highlight the body so much. We don't want to have tattoos or piercings that draw attention to the body because it was more about allowing the body to exist without judgment, without, well, let's say without judgment, but without

Gabby: 17:01

focusing on it. I get that. I, I get that. But do you understand, or even for listeners here can you see how that eliminates certain people? Because like I was saying, like not everybody is doing it to call attention to something. Some people are doing it because this

Dan: 17:23

is just part of their culture. Right. And it was a very simple way of thinking in that things like tattoos and piercings were drawing attention to certain parts of the body, which were, which made it overly sexual is what they were thinking. But here's the idea, is

Gabby: 17:39

that

Dan: 17:40

too simplistic thinking. Right, right. You know, it's basically looking at it in that very simple way and not thinking that tattoos and piercings can actually be either cultural or they could be just the way you show up, and that this is the way you're presenting yourself to the world. And when we're talking about the idea of body self-acceptance and accepting other people, not just yourself. You're going to want to accept people for the way they show up. Mm-hmm. Right. And so you have to broaden your mind when it comes to seeing

Gabby: 18:19

that side of things.

Dan: 18:20

Yeah,

Gabby: 18:21

I, I totally agree. I think the one thing that I definitely preach as the crown nudie is living in the gray area, multiple things can be true and multiple things can be true at the same time, And if we start to think a little bit more complex and train our minds to think outside of the box, we can start to understand a little bit about how the world is not so binary.

Dan: 18:55

I'm not talking about gender. Yeah, exactly. just like I said earlier, it has a lot to do with how nudist clubs came into existence and how the Free Beach movement came into existence. They came at it from different directions and nudist clubs in particular, they're

Gabby: 19:11

They're

Dan: 19:12

their own bubble. They're like their own universe. So you have a club social group that comes together and they don't see the outside world. They don't need to see the outside world. They're not as concerned about people coming into the club because they feel like their social circle is their circle. And that's a very different environment from going to, like when I was, first going to nude beaches, as a young adult that was mixed with a lot of different people. And so the beaches were the places that people who came. People who felt rejected by the clubs, they'd go to the beaches. And a lot of that's still true today'cause a lot of clubs still haven't caught up to the way modern society is. So yeah, I think it really is more about just the nature of where these movements come from. And it wasn't so much about intentionally excluding people, but just looking at it from that narrow viewpoint of if you have, say, a nipple piercing, then you're asking people to stare at your nipple,

Gabby: 20:22

which is not really true. Yeah, and some people you know, do body art and piercings for the art form, Not for people to gawk

Dan: 20:36

or think sexual thoughts And even if you look at some of the more recent things that have happened in recent years, such as body painting has become very popular, and that is specifically art. As much as it's temporary, you're still taking a human body and you're painting it, you're adding color to it to create, basically using them

Gabby: 20:56

as a canvas to create something amazing. Yeah, I get it. If you're saying to someone, if you have body art that's sexually explicit, then I can see that. But at the same time it's it's not like that person can easily go get it. They can get it removed. It's not like they can go, oh, let me rub it off, and, you know what I mean? And so it, it's a little tricky, I guess you would say, because it's it's more so nowadays now that it's more accepted. Now you're getting granular and you're saying, now you have to be more mindful of what the art you put on your body. Versus that you actually have it. Right. but I do also wanna get into the second point here that I think, nature is spaces can be more accountable about, is fetishizing marginalized bodies. we need to start rejecting sexualization in spaces that are meant for respect and connection. as someone who is, mixed race, my mother is half Nigerian, half, middle Eastern, and my dad is Indian and, but I am, when you see me, I'm very black presenting and I've had some pretty crazy things said to me. In both the textile world and the natures world. The number one thing I would say that happens to me is that people always wanna touch my afro. And it's not so much the touching of the Afro that bothers me, it's the fact that you wanna touch a stranger, Right? Because they're, I mean, I've had my friends touch my hair.

Dan: 23:00

I don't understand why anybody would feel. Like they could violate your personal space. Right? That just seems strange to me. But I also want to understand why do they feel the need in your case, to touch your hair? Why does it look so different to someone that they feel like there's something about it that they need to experience from a touch perspective? Right? So there's that part, which I don't understand. I don't know why people feel like they have the need to do that now. I'll also say that, uh, I don't think it's a sexualization now tell me I'm wrong, but I don't think there's a sexualized aspect to it. I feel like it's more of a, that's different. I don't know what that feels like. And people know, like me, I, oh God, I don't have much hair to begin with, but people know what their own hair feels like, right? And it's straight and whatever. But I don't know that people are doing it for a sexualized reason other than just to say that I think that people are doing it for just straight curiosity. They just don't know what that feels like. It's just so foreign

Gabby: 24:19

and different for a lot of people. Yeah. I just wonder if, I think there is times when it is just a oh, for curiosity thing that they just can't seem to control. And then there are people who just straight up wanna touch it because they just wanna touch it. And it

Dan: 24:38

is a, there is a

Gabby: 24:39

undertone to it. how do you tell the difference? Well, it it's situational. you can tell, And one easy way without it seeming like it's sexual is to ask to touch my hair or just straight up, go

Dan: 24:56

for it. And well, that's even more rude just to go and try to

Gabby: 25:01

touch your hair without even asking. But honestly, it's it's just even asking a stranger,

Dan: 25:06

can I just like,

Gabby: 25:07

you don't know me. Right.

Dan: 25:09

Yeah. It's really, I have a hard time understanding why

Gabby: 25:14

anybody would want to do such a thing. That is not the only way Marginalized folks feel fetishized, There are stereotypes around different communities, like, the black and brown LGBTQ plus about being over sexual. this stereotypes seems to have taken on a life of its own. if no one knows this already, I am allowed and proud by sexual. And so you go into these spaces and already there's like double stigma. then it's all like, you know, you must be here for sex. And it's like, well, no. I'm here to make connections. it's not just strange, but it's also now I have to do all this extra work for obstacles you

Dan: 26:09

placed on me.

Gabby: 26:11

That's not fair. Right, exactly. Because I just wanna be respected and. Celebrated and loved as myself versus now I have to challenge people, And this is why we have this platform, but I have to now challenge people because you can't just get over the fact that there are black people who actually just wanna be nude in, in a safe environment. and that also makes me feel as someone who is sex positive. And I am very open about it. as someone who is sex positive. Now it takes on another kind of like challenge, right? Because just because I'm sex positive doesn't mean that I just wanna dual that

Dan: 27:03

everywhere, anywhere with anyone. Part of it has to do with a question, that I have, that whether or not it's a nature of space or otherwise. Why do people make these assumptions about why you are in a space or a place? So if I go to a Naturist resort, I'm expecting that Natures resort is about allowing me the freedom to just be myself, to be comfortable without my clothes, and not be judged and not be approached for anything adult or sexual in nature, because I don't see nature as being those other things. But if you go to a Nature's club and. Especially if you're a single woman and a guy comes up to you and assumes that, hey, the only reason you're there is for a hookup, then that's just wrong

Gabby: 27:56

completely.

Dan: 27:57

and so it's regardless of the environment, be it in a nature, space or otherwise, these assumptions that you're showing up for, like the only reason you could be showing up in this place is because you're there looking for something specific. That's ridiculous.

Gabby: 28:13

Why do people do that? People don't just come into a nature space, take their personality hat off and then leave it at the door. These are things that they're carrying with them throughout their life. And so it's, this is not just a naturist way, like this is not just us challenging a

Dan: 28:36

naturist. this is just challenging humans. And I think that it's important for nature's clubs in particular to

Gabby: 28:42

be vigilant

Dan: 28:43

around the type of behaviors that people, that may very well have been longtime members exhibit towards new people in particular. So if you have someone as a longtime member, but they feel or have this attitude that the only reason people are coming there is for a hookup, which is not true. Now you have somebody new coming in and they're looking for an opportunity to just relax and be able to be free and a place, and then somebody approaches them and says, Hey, I'm down for something that is an inappropriate comment. It's inappropriate to be making such a suggestion, especially for people that are new to the environment, that don't realize that this is wrong. And they may not even be

Gabby: 29:32

comfortable saying that it's wrong. I think sometimes when that happens, people just don't go back. They don't say anything. They just don't go back. And then if it's not said, then it's not challenged. And then the person who is the perpetrator,

Dan: 29:45

they don't change their behavior. They just keep, it keeps getting worse and worse. And so what ends up happening is now you start, the club itself starts getting a reputation for being a place that allows that kind of thing, which is really sad. And

Gabby: 30:01

that's that kind of behavior that really needs to be rooted out. and here's the thing, and this goes into the next, the next thought, right? two things can be true at the same time. someone can be both a natures and something else. they could have or live another alternative lifestyle, but that's not the problem. The problem is when you don't know how to control yourself, right? Like, why is it that you can't just be who you are without disrespecting a space that is meant for one particular thing, right? Because here's my thing on that, if you are, say, a swinger or someone who engages in, all kinds of other stuff, there are rules in those spaces too. So it. It boggles my mind when you come to a natures space

Dan: 31:04

and you can't follow through.

Gabby: 31:05

rules.

Dan: 31:07

Right, exactly. If you can't respect a nature of space as being for naturalism, not

Gabby: 31:13

for those other things, that's a problem. And so I think it's important that we're focusing on

Dan: 31:20

behavior./ It turns out that we have a lot to talk about on the topic of challenging social norms, so check out our next episode for part two, and that is the nature's vibe.